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Adjectives question

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1 Adjectives question on Fri Jul 31, 2009 11:32 am

Please vowelise and translate the following sentece. The grammatical breakdown is not required though explanations for the more "tricky" words are expected.


ذهبت إلى بيت الرجل الكببر


Please note that a translation alone is not suffiecient. You must give reasons for the vowelisation and thus the translation.

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2 Re: Adjectives question on Fri Jul 31, 2009 1:28 pm

الماس

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طالبـــة ابـــن منظـــور
طالبـــة ابـــن منظـــور
السلام عليكم

ذَهَبْتُ إِلَى بَيْتِ الرّجُلِ الكَبِيرِ

Translation: 1).'I went to the house of the old/great man' or 2).'I went to the large house of the man.'

Ok, here are my thoughts:

Firstly, ذَهَبْتُ (I went) could have been ذَهَبَتِ (You went first person feminine) ذَهَبَتَ (You went first person masculine) or ذَهَبَتْ (She went)

However, for the female to go in this context (i.e. to the house of the man) seems inappropriate but is nonetheless plausible, just as the first person m/f is also probable, but to avoid dispute, I left it as 'I' so that the first person can represent masculine or feminine.

Translation 1 reason for vowelisation: The man in relation to the بَيْتِ is its possesor, and therefore, in the genetive case and also definite. This means that any adjective of the man will have to follow in case, definition, number and gender as well. Thus, الكَبِبرِ fits into this category and can therefore continue in the genetive case after الرّجُلِ.

Translation 2 reason for vowelisation: Even in the second translation, the vowelling stays the same. This is because the adjective of بَيْتِ must be masculine, singular, genetive and definite as the word بَيْتِ engenders all these. Also the possessed (بَيْتِ)has been rendered definite by the possesor in the إضافة construction i.e. the ال on the possessor الرّجُلِ has made the word بَيْتِ definite.

Also, the reason why translation number 2 can work is because, the adjective الكَبِبرِ is placed after the possessor because it is not allowed to come in between the possessive construction: 'بَيْتِ الرّجُلِ'

Finally, all the cases have been rendered genetive due to the preposition إِلَى at the beginning.

مع السلامة

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3 Re: Adjectives question on Tue Aug 04, 2009 12:41 pm

Nurjahan

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طالبـــة ابـــن منظـــور
طالبـــة ابـــن منظـــور
ذهبتُ إلى بيتِ الرجلِ الكببرِ
Translation One: I went to the house of the big man
ذهبتُ ماضي مبني
إلى حرف جر
بيتِ اسم مجرور بالكسرة ومضاف
الرجلِ مضاف إليه مجرور بالكسرة
الكببرِ نعت مجرور بالكسرة

Explanation: The adjective must agree in case, number, gender and definiteness, in this instance we are viewing the adjective to agree with الرجلِ.


ذهبتُ إلى بيتِ الرجلِ الكببرِ
Translation Two: I went to the big house of the man
ذهبتُ ماضي مبني
إلى حرف جر
بيتِ اسم مجرور بالكسرة ومضاف
الرجلِ مضاف إليه مجرور بالكسرة
الكببرِ نعت مجرور بالكسرة

Explanation: The مضاف and مضاف إليه cannot be separated so the adjective must follow them and agree with that which it is describing. So here we can view the adjective to be in agreement with بيتِ the noun which it is describing.

Note: ذهبت can either be interpreted as (m1) ذهبتَ or (f1) ذهبتِ or ذهبتُ

I am left with one question. Can the above sentence also be translated as 'I went to the big house of the big man,' as the adjective in this case agrees in all forms with both words....so can this be a third translation? If the answer is no, then how else would the third translation be expressed...?

An open question for anyone....

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4 Re: Adjectives question on Tue Aug 04, 2009 4:48 pm

الماس

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طالبـــة ابـــن منظـــور
طالبـــة ابـــن منظـــور
السلام عليكم

This is really an interesting question Nurjahan - ما شاء الله I like your thinking...

Hmmm...

I see what you're saying regarding the adjective (الكبيرِ) encompassing both the possessed (بيتِ) and possessor (الرجلِ) but I do think if this were the case, then perhaps the adjective would have to be changed to the dual form in order to display that it is doing the job of describing both nouns; as I think now we are dealing with a change in number.

Might it have been written for example: ذهبتُ إلى بيتِ الرجلِ الكببرَيْنِ

Having said that, I would be confused at first glance of that sentence, it looks slightly odd...

I wonder if there is scope for a third translation to the original sentence?

مع السلامة

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